The Sin of Sinless Perfectionism (2/3)

Recently, our christian brother Jeff Durbin of Apologia Radio, was interviewed twice for project that he is doing called End Abortion Now - (Interview 1, 2).

During the interviews, the host of the show that he was on, was pushing false/heretical doctrine known commonly as Sinless Perfection.

In the last post, I looked at some verses that are use for the position and against the position.

This time, we'll see what would happen to the scriptures if their position was true.

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2. Contradiction and Consequences

Those who hold to sinless perfectionism will usually dismiss the  context and continue to force their position.

This, of course, means that the scriptures are contradictory, and therefore cant be considered the word of God... at least those books that present the contradiction.

For example, if their position was true, we'd have to get rid of romans, and anything that is from Paul before that point in his life.

Why? Because Paul contradicts this position, which in turn contradicts 1 John 3.

Romans 7:17-25 (ESV)  So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 

For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 

For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 

Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 

For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

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Here, we see the Apostle Paul describe the life of a believer. But he does so by pointing to himself and what he struggles with and sees within his own life.

According to Jesse Lee Peterson's take on sinless perfectionism, Paul couldn't be an apostle because he still sins. Therefore is of the devil because one born of God can't sin.

It actually gets worse.

In the letter to the Galatians, we see the Apostle Peter sinning as well.

Galatians 2:11-14 (ESV)  But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 

For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 

And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 

But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

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So according to Jesse's doctrine, Peter wasn't an apostle either, nor was he saved for that matter.

This means we need to disregard anything Peter said to the church authoritatively. As he wasn't speaking the word of God.

If you notice, the new testament is starting to get smaller.

However, that's not even the worse part.

You see, for Jesse's doctrine to be true, God would have to be wrong.

You see, Peter was one of those who were filled with the Holy Spirit on the day of pentecost.

He is one of those who spoke in tongues and was one of the people God used to draw to the Jews attention that God was also saving gentiles via the incident at Cornelius' house.

Barnabas, whom the Holy Spirit commanded the church to set aside for the work He called him to, was said to be a Holy Spirit filled believer in Acts.

Acts 11:22-24 (ESV)  The report of this came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas to Antioch. 

When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose, for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

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The reason I'm pointing this out is because only believers are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9 (ESV)  You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Christ Jesus even tells us that those who are not saved, meaning they're of the world, can't receive the Holy Spirit.

John 14:16-17 (ESV)  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

If Jesus is correct, then Jesse is wrong.

If Jesse is correct, then Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not God because they do the opposite of what Jesse says can happen.

So the Holy Spirit shouldn't have filled Peter and Barnabas as they weren't saved as evidenced by their sin later on.

Only those who are saved cant sin.

Also, Jesus shouldn't have said the world can't receive the Holy Spirit when they surely can.

The Sin of Sinless Perfectionism (1/3)

Sinless perfectionism is the belief that a believer cannot commit sin once they are saved.

If a professing believer was to sin, it is actually evidence that they are not actually saved.

The first time i came across this false doctrine was years ago when i was reading an article at carm about the heretic Joyce Meyer.

She holds to this belief. She even goes as far as to say that believing otherwise is a lie from hell.

This is the first time i'd heard something so ludicrous.

The second time i heard this false doctrine was when i reconnected with an acquaintance that i used to go to church with.

Both of us left that church and hadn't seen each other in years.

He started his own church and after a number of anti-calvinist tirades, i found out that he also held to this false doctrine.

That was not too long ago.

More recently, i came across this false doctrine a third time.

This time, it was in a radio program featuring brother Jeff Durbin from Apologia Radio.

Brother Jeff was on a radio program twice, being interviewed because of the work he is doing with the End Abortion Now project. (Interview 1, 2).

The host of the program is also a professing christian, a reverend apparently, and one who holds to the false doctrine of sinless perfectionism.

The hosts name is Jesse Lee Peterson.

Joyce as well as Jesse have the ears of an incredibly large amount of people.

Sinless perfectionism isn't simply a false doctrine, but is actually heresy (maybe a damning heresy, depending how far one goes with it).

The majority of the time, the discussion will revolve around one point in scripture.

1 John 3:6-10 (KJV)  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

These verses are usually what the sinless perfectionist clings to.

They will point and say that someone who is saved will not and can not sin.

How can they be wrong when the scriptures clearly affirm what they are saying?

Well, thats what we're going to be looking at.

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1. Context, Context, Context

The first issue we should deal with is the context of these verses.

If you notice, I used the KJV.

Translations that are more up to date will have the word practice inserted.

1 John 3:9 (ESV)  No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Sinless perfectionists usually don't accept this.

The reason practice, and keep on sinning, has been included is because the greek word used here emphasises a continuous, habitual, lifestyle.

This is why modern translations translate it differently than the older translations do.

For more details on the greek, I recommend reading about it on carm.

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The second issue relating to the context is that these verses appear 3 chapters into the letter.

In the first chapter, we are told the following:

1 John 1:8 (ESV)  If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And...

1 John 1:10 (ESV)  If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This letter is being written to believers from a believer.

The author includes himself as one who would be deceived and not have God's word in him if he doesn't confess that he has sin.

Even if one wants to say that that wasn't addressed to believers, the author still includes himself by saying "we".

But that makes no sense if he is now sinless.

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The second chapter shows the same thing.

1 John 2:1-2 (ESV)  My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

If sinless perfectionism was true, his reason for writing would be a waste of time because they CAN NOT sin.

But not only does he say they can, if they do, Christ is their advocate. Christ is also their propitiation.

So not only does the author make it crystal clear that he is speaking to believers, but he also includes himself as having sin.

Y.A.C. Ep 5 - News

Political Christianity

Christians are commanded to pursue justice, mercy, and righteousness - as defined by the God of the bible.

If a professing christian is able to get in a position of power within the government, so that they are able to put in policies and laws, but that professing christian declares that they reject the justice, mercy, and/or righteousness as defined by the God of the bible...

... then that person is not one you should trust

#twofaced #doubleminded #speaksoutofbothsidesoftheirmouth #untrustworthy

Have You Not Read?

One of the saddest things in christendom today is the widespread unbelief that exists in the church.

And this unbelief is spread by those who claim to believe in Christ.

What does it look like?

Well, the scriptures tell us that the righteous walk by faith and not sight.

The the just live by faith in Christ.

Jesus even says that those who believe and do not see are blessed.

Yet in the church, there are many who will disregard the word of God if they don't see something.

Christian will make vain prayers to God, asking the Holy Spirit to "show up", as if God hasn't already told us that He already dwells in us.

If God doesn't do something visible for people to see during a service we treat it as though it wasn't the same written word of God that was being preached.

In these last days we see christians running here and there in hopes that God will give some kind of physical sign.

Yet the scriptures tell us that it's in that very same climate and mind frame that will cause many to be deceived because the enemy will provide many signs and wonders for people to get excited about... all of them being false and pointing to someone or something other than God.

Scripture tells us that it's by God's word, that has been written down and preserved for us, that will teach and prepare us for every good work that we will ever do within our christian life.

We are not supposed to be searching for a "fresh anointing".

Scripture doesn't say to wait for a still small voice.

Instead, we are commanded to read, study, and meditate on the word of the living God.

If a church is elevating signs and wonders to be on par with or more important than the study and expounding of the scriptures, that is a church to be wary of.

Many christians have even wandered into witchcraft thinking that God has spoken to them in some secret way that they have to figure out, when scriptures say that God explains whatever He speaks to His people.

Christians are reading omens and seeking to interpret dreams, when scripture warns us about doing those things.

Scripture even says that those who go on about dreams and visions are not people who we should look to for sound biblical teaching, yet those are the same people that christians not only run to but hold up as an example of what a christian should be.

If we are children of God, why doesn't our desire for the milk and meat of the word not trump all other spiritual desires?

Why are we constantly seeking for a sign, or some supernatural manifestation, before we simply trust and believe in the scriptures?

Is our trust in God so weak that we can't take Him at His word?

If it's true that the word of God is a lamp to our feet and a light to our path, why are we not trusting in the word of God, the scriptures, to do its job?

Let us repent for our disdain of the scriptures. Let us turn back to God with faith in what He's given to us.

For it is the only thing that He has chosen to give us that we know is without a doubt from Him.

And its through these scriptures that we learn everything that we need to know about God and how to live our christian life.

As it is written, "all scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work".

Christian Extremist?

So, the argument goes like this...

How can you demonise muslims when there are extremists in all religions.

Even christianity has extremists.

Where do we see christian extremists today?

Its not where but when.

Christian extremists use to rob and pillage and rape people all the time in previous centuries.

The african slave trade was started and perpetuated by christian extremists.

Christian extremists murdered many non-christians across europe and the americas.
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Many ppl who hear this argument feel that the person who states it is correct.

Even christians give a hardy amen to the muslim apologist who gives this as a rebuke to people's concern with islam.

Is there a problem with this reasoning?

Why yes, there is.

Its a glaring problem as well.

So, is there such a thing as christian extremism?

Yes... and no.

Yes, because someone can go to the extreme in their christianity.

For example, Jesus says, 'if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin, chop it off'

People read this and understand the seriousness of sin.

However, most ppl who read this understand that Christ isny literally saying to pluck out an eye or chop off a hand.

Especially because its not ones eye or hand that causes one to sin, but their sinful man (flesh), that causes them to sin. They are also aware that we'll never be rid of this sin nature until the ressurection.

What would a christian extremist do with this though?

They would chop off their own hand and pluck out their own eye.

They will quickly find out that doing so didnt stop the sinful desires as well.

So when Jesus says we should pray in secret in our closet, the extremist might literally only pray in an actual closet.

Is this christianity taken to its extremity?

No, its not.

This is ideas taken from christianity and twisted so that it doesnt resemble what was originally intended.

It would be the same if someone took the command for christians to die to themselves to mean they should commit suicide.

A real christian extremist would take the words of Christ to the extreme.

The problem is that everybody knows what Christ taught.

Even those who never read the bible know that Christ taught christians to love.

Have an attitude with a non-believer and they'll be quick to throw that fact in your face.

What about murdering, raping & robbing people?

Well, how can Jesus teach love and tell people to do these things.

These arent things taught by Christ so how can they be called 'christian'?

Its obvious that they cant.

However, that doesnt mean that people who claimed to be christian didnt do these things in times past.

Some even claimed that they were doing these things in the name of Christ.

Take the famous witch trials in Salem.

This phenomenon exists today.

If you talk to people on the street, you will encounter a number of people who claim to be christian and not only dont have a clue what christianity teaches, but will even describe a completely different God than the one shown in the bible.

Are these people christian?

Of course not.

And here is where the muslim apologist wants to get you to.

You see, the musim  apologust knows fully well that Christ sidnt teach to rob, rape, and murder. But they are also aware that people claiming to be christians did.

And so, they want to put islam in the sane position.

They want you to have in your mind, that just like christianity, evil people took the name of islam, and committed evil acts that their religion doesnt teach.

And their proof is that they follow islam and dont do those wicked things, nor do they teach them.

Here is where they depend on the ignorance of islam within the hearer.

The reason this is the case is because the glaring problem with the argument is found in each religions book.

In christianity, each and every one of those evil acts are condemned by the christian God.

Even in the old testament, that has a lot of violence, these acts are even condemned there as well.

Jesus even spoke directly about this. That people were using the name of God to commit evil acts. He even said that people would murder christians in the name of God as well.

All the evil acts throughout history that were committed by people who claimed to be christian could not have happened if the people were actually following the bible.

As a matter of fact, when the roman catholic church was the ruling religious power, they murdered many christians who attenpted to translate the bible into common language so that the everyday person would know what it said and what it didn't say.

If these people were actually obeying the bible, there wouldn't have been any salem witch trials, african slave trade or many other despicable acts.

It's not that the bible doesn't teach it. No. The bible teaches directly against it.

The bible doesn't just say, love your neighbor, and because of that, we know not to enter into the african slave trade.

No. The bible says to love, and anybody who steals a man, that person is to be put the death.

The rapist is supposed to be put to death.

The bible even says that the death penalty cant be done just on an accusation either. There had to be two or three lines of evidence or witnesses to prove that these things happened.

Even if people joined together and framed someone and got them put to death.

If the truth was found out, those people who lied would get the death penalty themselves for purposefully sending an innocent person to their death.

The bible is consistent with its message of justice, love, and mercy.

Not just to our own either. In both the old and new testaments, people are commanded to love their people, their neighbours, and their enemies.

We're even told to go out of our way to even show love to our enemies.

On top of all that, conversion is not something that can be forced.

This isnt something that I'm just saying as though it's a modern concept.

You dont see forcrd conversions anywhere in the bible.

Old testament wars weren't fought with a 'convert or die', mentality. And christians weren't commanded to do it either.

Now, i say all of that to say this... it's not the same within the holy book of islam.

In the quran, the vast majority of the rhetoric is 'convert or die'.

It didnt start out that way either.

In the beginning, muhammed was actually peaceful.

The problem was that he was rejected by majority of those whom he brought his message.

Its when he realised that he wouldnt be accepted be being peaceful and started to murder, rob, and rape.

The quran shows muhammed doing a lot of the same acts that the ISISs of todays world are doing, and commanding all muslims to do likewise.

The quran, has the islamic god telling muhammed to do some of these things, and even giving him permission when he's not sure.

This is why the islamic "extremists" constantly point to a number of verses in the quran, as well as islamic history.

Since the inception if islam, muslims have literally been at war with everyone who isn't a believer and at times would war with each other.

Even the first crusade that was started by one of the roman catholic popes, actually began as a defensive military response against islam, as muslim had taken over country after country, by the sword.

Anybody who didnt convert to islam was either murdered or forced to pay a high tax for protection, in order to not be killed.

This is the same actions the muhammed practiced, and its clearly seen in the quran.

What makes it even worse, is that the muslims also kept a collection of sayings of muhammed. These are called hadiths.

These are supposed to be read along side the quran, as it explains much of what was going on when a verse was "revealed" to muhammed.

It details questions that people asked him, his responses to their questions, what othet groups thought of him, and many other interedting information that would help someone to understand islam and muhammed better.

Of course, each group of muslims trust some hadiths over others, but regardless if which ones you go to, they all present the muslim with problems to their religions.

This is the information that the islamic apologist is hoping you do not have.

Many people have not even read the quran, much less any of the hadith.

Being ignorant in this area then, allows the islamic apologist to place christianity and islam side by side, and say they are the same.

Both are religions that teach peace that people have hijacked and done evil in its name.

But the reality is, that that description is only actually true for christianity, not islam.

So, is there actually christian extremists in the true sense of the word?

Yes. But these "extremists" wouldnt be harming people at all because Christ doesnt teach that, but the opposite.

A christian extremist may be seen preaching the gospel to a captive audience on a bus or train - annoying the masses in the process, but thats about it.

Christ's commands to the church was not one that could be used to do evil things in the slightest. So the answer to the question is also no.

However, that is not the case with islam.

As a matter of fact, i dont even think "extremism" can be used to define the muslims who go around murdering people in the name of allah.

Why? Because muhammed commands them to do it.

So they arent actually going to extremes but are rather simply doing what they are told to do.

That is the glaring problem in this argument.

Scripture Meditation

Exodus 14:16-18 (ESV)  Lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the people of Israel may go through the sea on dry ground.

And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.

And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen.”

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God will receive glory for all those whom He has saved, and He will receive glory for all those who will be thrown into the lake of fire