Faith Workout (part 2)

Last time, I was talking about a long conversation I had with someone I knew about theology.

The discussion seemed to centre around the doctrines of grace, aka reformed theology.

Last time we looked at whether or not Jesus died for everybody in the world, simply making salvation available and leaving it up to the individual to apply salvation to themselves or if Jesus died for certain amount of people whom He actively saves without the individuals consent.

We saw that Jesus clearly teaches that salvation is completely of God with man having no part in it. He gives us faith, opens our eyes, draws us to Himself, makes us believe, keeps us saved and all of that without asking for our permission.

One of the other things we discussed was how God chose people for salvation.

We know that the choice is entirely God's, and we also know that the decisions were made before the foundation of the world...

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The argument was made that God looks into the future to see who would choose Him, and based on that He chooses them first.

Now, there are a number of problems that culminate in making God... not actually God, however, I didn't bring all the possible objections forward during the discussion.

So before I get into what I said, let me talk about the real problem with this.

The bible teaches that God is omniscient. That He is all knowing or knows everything.

Well, if He has to look into the future to know something, then He is no longer omniscient.

Add the uncountable number of people who will be saved and you have a large number of things that God simply doesn't know the answer to and needs to look into the future to find out.

And, if He doesn't look into the future then I guess He would never be able to save anybody since He would never know who would choose Him.

This belief basically makes a person an open theist.

An open theist is a person who believes God is not omniscient, doesn't know the future at all (even what will happen 5 minutes from now), makes guesses for all future events, and can actually be wrong when it comes to future events since God doesn't really know.

This is not how God is portrayed in the bible.

God's omniscience seems to be part of His very nature. He knows everything that will happen by default without looking into the future.If there was anything that God needed to learn, then it wouls seem that He would no longer be God.

Now, during the discussion, this wasn't the argument I used against the idea. What I did say, although is valid, I would say, is not as strong or hard hitting as the above.

The above brings into question the very nature of God, where as my argument didn't.

My argument was that if this is indeed how God chooses people to be saved, then our salvation is indeed based on our works. It's not based on grace at all.

Scripture tells us clearly...

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

2 Timothy 1:8-11
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Romans 11:5-6
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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Now some might say, "if God is still choosing first, then how can I call it works?"

The issue here is that, if God looks into the future and only chooses those who will eventually choose Him, then salvation is clearly based on the work we will do in the future.

But we're told over and over that it's not based on our works at all.

And if it is based God learning what we will do, then salvation isn't based on grace at all, as paul clearly tells us in Romans 11.

A third problem with this idea is that, man will never choose God.

Romans 3:9-12
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Paul clearly tells us that no one seeks after God. No one does good.

For this to be true, it would mean that no one would choose God.

It's quite clear that in this scenario, the thing that causes God to choose us is because of the good we will do, namely choosing Him.

But again no one does good.

Our situation though is worse than that.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here we are told that we could never even know God or anything spiritual on our own.

So not only would not choose God, we literally don't have the ability to do so.

This is actually doctrine that Jesus taught.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Salvation comes first, then is a person able to see and understand.

So then, we know that God doesn't look into the future to see who will choose Him.

But if all these reason why He doesn't is true, how does He choose?

Well, the bible doesn't actually tell us.

We know that those who are saved will respond to the gospel. They will recognise that they are sinners, have sinned, and rightly deserve God's wrath. The will also recognise that Jesus is God, and has died on the cross so save people just like them from the Father's wrath. They will turn to Christ, confess their sins to Him, and beg Him to forgive and save them.

They will further recognise that this has actually happened, pointing to the cross, and they will set themselves to now obey Christ in all things.

This is the fruit of those who God has elected to salvation from the foundation of the world, according to the scriptures.

But we are no where told how God makes the decision to save this person and not that person.

It seems to be something that is none of our business.

Now, that might catch people by surprise, but if God told us how He chose wouldn't we try to make sure that people do or say whatever in order in order to bend God's arm somehow to save then?

Do we not do that anyway? We declare those who answer an altar call as saved. We declare someone saved if they repeat the sinner's prayer.

Some even go so far as to say someone has lost their salvation if they leave one local congregation to go to a different one.

We even try to bend God's arm to answer our prayer by getting a bunch of people to pray too, thinking that more people praying will make God bow to peer pressure and obey our command. Even going so far as to twist His word to make it say something it doesn't (Matthew 18 - Where two or more are gathered...).

In all sorts of ways, we go much further than scripture intended and even allows. But when it comes to salvation, God has always told us the means. It's always been up to Him.

Romans 9:6-33
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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So, we know that God saves some and doesn't save others.

We know that salvation is entirely upto Him, and there is nothing we do to play a part in it.

We know that, because we are sinners, God would be entirely just to send all of us to Hell, and so His not choosing some is entirely just on His part.

And lastly, we know that we have no idea why or how He makes the decision to choose one person over the next.

These things deal with the first 4 of the 5 part summary known as the acronym T.U.L.I.P., aka reformed theology.

T: Total Depravity - all are sinners destined for hell, and will not and can not choose God

U: Unconditional Election - God alone chooses who will be saved and it's not based on anything the person does.

L: Limited Atonement - God choose some people to be saved. It's His decision to save some and not others/all. Christ only died for His sheep.

I: Irresistable Grace - All those who the Father gives to Christ, will come to Him. God makes/causes people to come to Him.

P: Perseverance of the saints - all those who are saved, will stay saved. They can never lose their salvation.

These are the things that not only Christ Jesus teaches directly, but the totality of scripture shows.

When we take Jesus' words seriously, and pay attention to what it is He's saying, we can't help
but come to these conclusions.

Of course these things go against our sinful sensibilities. We think that we must repent, or be baptised, or cry out for God, in order to be saved.

Jesus tells us that it's actually the other way. He saves us first, then these things happen.

Join us next time when we look at another idea that was discussed.

Maranatha

Twitter Thoughts

Don't be deceived, being able to do "miracles" does not prove someone is of God
- Deut 13, Matt 7, Matt 24, Mar 13, 2 Thes 2, Rev 13

Faith Workout

The other day, I met up with a brother in Christ that i've known for awhile.

We spent about 3 hours talking about the things of God.

I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

The majority of the time seemed to be spent discussing certain aspects of, what is often called, reformed theology.

This is also known as the doctrines of grace.

It is usually summed up using the acronym, T.U.L.I.P.

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The T stands for total depravity. Every part of man is touched by sin. Although we aren't as bad as we can be, this causes us to be completely dead in our sins. Even our good deeds are seen as sinful to God.

We are completely and utterly doomed, and have no ability to save ourselves.

The U stands for unconditional election.

Scripture declares that there is nothing we can do to earn salvation. It also declares that there is nothing in us that causes God to save us. No inherent goodness or beauty. So the choice to save is completely up to God.

The L stands for limited atonement. God does not save everyone, but some. He chooses who He will show grace and mercy, and to whom He will judge.

The I stands for irresistable grace. This is not to say that one can't resist God or make attempts to do so, but that those who He has chosen, elected, to be saved, will be saved. His will, will be done.

The P stands for perseverance of the saints. That is to say that all those who God saves, given eternal life, He will keep saved. They will persevere until the end.

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These doctrines are clearly taught in the bible and are directly spoken by Jesus Himself.

Those who disagree with these either don't understand them, and therefore don't understand what they are saying, or... they fully understand what they are saying and don't care that they no longer hold to the core tenets of the faith.

In other words, they aren't christians and don't care.

Most, I would say, are in the former camp. It's this position that I took when I was discussing these things with my brother. He was unaware of the position he was taking, as he didn't fully understand the implications of his stance.

So, I thought I would run through some of the ideas and objections he brought.

One of the things we talked about was whether or not Jesus died for the sins of the world... as in literally everybody in the world.

In his mind, by doing this, Jesus is making salvation available, not actually saving anybody.

There are two problems with this.

The first is that if Jesus actually paid for the sins of the entire world, then no one should go to hell.

We know this to be the case because the cross is where our sins have been paid for.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The punishmemt for our sins were poured out on Christ at the cross.

Our sins were paid for back then. If this was indeed for everybody in the world, then there are no sins for those in hell to be punished for.

This would make God unjust as He is punishing someone for sins that have already been paid for.

This would also reduce the value of the sacrifice as it would mean that the blood can't cleanse our sins. Something else needs to be done/added in order for the sins to be forgiven.

This, obviously is not what scripture shows.

The second problem is that the bible doesn't say that the crucifixion made salvation possible, but that it actually saves.

Let's look at some scriptures.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Here, we are told that Jesus will actually take away the sins of the world. Not just make it possible, but will actually do it.

But, we know that not everyone will be saved. So how can john the baptist be correct?

Well, this isn't to be taken in the sense that Jesus would take away the sins of everybody in the entire world.

How do we know that? If this isn't the case, then Jesus has failed. Not only that but God has lied. As it was God that told John that Jesus would do this.

So in what sense does Jesus mean the world?

There are either two options. The first one is that He meant it as in a large amount of specific people. So the term "world" can mean the entire group of people that is in mind.

The book of Revelation tells us that the amount of people who will be saved id innumerable.

We also get an example of this usage.

Luke 2:1
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Did caesar literally tax the entire world? No.

The other option, which is what makes more sense, is that the term world means both jew and gentile.

Jew and gentile comprises the world. Jesus takes away the sins of both jew and gentile.

With that settled, there are other scriptures to look at.

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Here we have Jesus saying that He was sent so that the world might be saved.

Again, we know that there will be people in hell. Doesn't that mean that Jesus failed?

If He was sent to save everybody, and didn't, that means He failed.

Although it wouldn't be a problem if He was simply a man, but He is supposed to be God in the flesh.

He is supposed to be the same God that turns the hearts of kings like a river however He sees fit.

He is supposed to be the same God that always brings to pass the things that He has declared.

So, to say that Jesus died for the sins of the world, meaning everybody in the world, and some people go to hell, ultimately means that Jesus is not God.

Since this is the conclusion, this is why people say that He came to make salvation possible, not to actually save people.

In this way, Jesus isn't failing as salvation isn't based on His work but on the work of man.

However, this is clearly not what scripture teaches. There is nothing man can do to earn or deserve salvation. If salvation is up to man to choose, then there is something they can/must do in order to obtain it. And without them doing it they won't be saved.

They bible calls that works.

What is interesting is that Jesus seems to make the proper understanding quite clear. That, in His taking away the sins of the world, that He is not talking about literally everyone in the world.

John 12:47-48
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Here we see that even though there are those who don't believe, them not believing doesn't nullify Christ's saving of the world.

Now, someone might use those previous verses to say, 'see, it doesn't nullify Christ's saving of the world because He saves by making salvation available, and we have to commit to Him', but here's what Jesus also said...

John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus says He isn't praying for the world, but only those that the Father has given Him.

For someone making salvation available to the world, isn't it counter-productive not to pray for them?

Doesn't Christ want everybody in the world to be saved? But He won't even pray for them.

The obvious answer here is that the world doesn't mean everybody in the world.

Jesus declared exactly who would be saved before He went to the cross.

John 10:14-16
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The only people who Jesus died for,
are His sheep.

He came for a specfic people, and He will be victorious in saving them. These are those whom the bible says are elect. Their names have been written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world.

So a person can be a staunch atheist at this moment. If they are one of the elect, eventually, God will save them.

Now, this may be hard to comprehend. How can I say that God doesn't want everybody to be saved?

The problem is that it's not me just saying it, but it's the testimony of scripture.

Jesus tells us that the reason He started speaking in parables was so that people wouldn't be saved. Doing this even fufilled prophecy.

Mark 4:10-12
And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable.

And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

The parallel passages are found in Matthew 13 and Luke 8.

The question we should ask is that if Jesus really wanted everybody to be saved, why woule He speak in parables and, by His own admission, prevent people from being saved?

If saving everybody is His goal, then speaking in parables is actually going against the will of the Father.

Jesus tells us in no uncertain terms who He has died for (i.e. who will be saved)... His sheep.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Here, we see Jesus saying that only His sheep will believe. Notice, He doesn't say we will be His sheep if we believe.

Only His sheep will be granted saving faith. Remember, God gives us the faith to believe. We don't generate this faith at all. But the eye opener here is that Jesus identifies those who are His sheep before they believe

He also says...

John 6:64-65
"But there are some of you that believe not". For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And He said, "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father".

If our faith is given to us by God, and obviously we aren't asking for this faith before this point, then it's clearly God who detemines who will be saved and who will not.

Since we can't come to the Father except through Christ, while at the same time we only come to Christ because the Father gives us to Christ before hand, it's painfully obvious that God chooses who He will save and who He will not. We are not told how He chooses, but we

John 6:37-39
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Here, we see Jesus telling us that this is exactly what He came to do. To pay the price for all those whom the Father has chosen and given to Him.

God actively chooses who He will save. He doesn't make salvation available and leaves it up to man to ultimately make the decision.

If He did, then Jesus could not be the author and finisher of our faith. Either He would be the author but not the finisher, or the finisher but not the author but not both.

Now, some may ask, is it possible that this could be wrong? What other options are there?

There is no possibility that this could be wrong, and this is specifically due to the options left.

The first option is that we're misunderstanding the verses in the same way people misunderstand the term "world".

The problem with this option is that, unlike the term "world" where there is scripture that specifically identifies and deals with the objects of salvation (i.e. scripture interpreting scripture), there is no other verses that change the meaning of what Jesus says.

He says it more than once, even in parables, and actively doesn't try to save everyone.

He also says it very plainly so no other meaning could be taken from it.

The second possible option is that the bible is wrong in ascribing these words to Jesus. However, this means that the bible isn't the Word of God and can't be trusted.

The third option is simply that Jesus was wrong or lying.

This would obviously make Him not God, and our faith futile.

None of those options are viable.

So, since Jesus is God, and He speaks the truth, and the bible is inerrant, then God is indeed the one who chooses.

A sinner repents because God draws Him and causes Him to repent. God takes out the person's old heart and gives them a new one without the person agreeing to it. He gives the dead person life without them asking for it.

The Father gives us to Christ while we are steeped in sin and are His enemies.

And this is done so that God gets all the glory for the entirety of salvation, from start to finish.

Join us next time as we go through some other ideas that were discussed.

Twitter Thoughts

The best test of a christian's obedience to God, is for them to come across scripture that completely contradicts what they believe

Twitter Thoughts

The best test of a christian's obedience to God, is for them to come across scripture that completely contradicts what they believe