Last time, I was talking about a long conversation I had with someone I knew about theology.
The discussion seemed to centre around the doctrines of grace, aka reformed theology.
Last time we looked at whether or not Jesus died for everybody in the world, simply making salvation available and leaving it up to the individual to apply salvation to themselves or if Jesus died for certain amount of people whom He actively saves without the individuals consent.
We saw that Jesus clearly teaches that salvation is completely of God with man having no part in it. He gives us faith, opens our eyes, draws us to Himself, makes us believe, keeps us saved and all of that without asking for our permission.
One of the other things we discussed was how God chose people for salvation.
We know that the choice is entirely God's, and we also know that the decisions were made before the foundation of the world...
Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
The argument was made that God looks into the future to see who would choose Him, and based on that He chooses them first.
Now, there are a number of problems that culminate in making God... not actually God, however, I didn't bring all the possible objections forward during the discussion.
So before I get into what I said, let me talk about the real problem with this.
The bible teaches that God is omniscient. That He is all knowing or knows everything.
Well, if He has to look into the future to know something, then He is no longer omniscient.
Add the uncountable number of people who will be saved and you have a large number of things that God simply doesn't know the answer to and needs to look into the future to find out.
And, if He doesn't look into the future then I guess He would never be able to save anybody since He would never know who would choose Him.
This belief basically makes a person an open theist.
An open theist is a person who believes God is not omniscient, doesn't know the future at all (even what will happen 5 minutes from now), makes guesses for all future events, and can actually be wrong when it comes to future events since God doesn't really know.
This is not how God is portrayed in the bible.
God's omniscience seems to be part of His very nature. He knows everything that will happen by default without looking into the future.If there was anything that God needed to learn, then it wouls seem that He would no longer be God.
Now, during the discussion, this wasn't the argument I used against the idea. What I did say, although is valid, I would say, is not as strong or hard hitting as the above.
The above brings into question the very nature of God, where as my argument didn't.
My argument was that if this is indeed how God chooses people to be saved, then our salvation is indeed based on our works. It's not based on grace at all.
Scripture tells us clearly...
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 3:4-7
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
2 Timothy 1:8-11
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Romans 11:5-6
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
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Now some might say, "if God is still choosing first, then how can I call it works?"
The issue here is that, if God looks into the future and only chooses those who will eventually choose Him, then salvation is clearly based on the work we will do in the future.
But we're told over and over that it's not based on our works at all.
And if it is based God learning what we will do, then salvation isn't based on grace at all, as paul clearly tells us in Romans 11.
A third problem with this idea is that, man will never choose God.
Romans 3:9-12
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Paul clearly tells us that no one seeks after God. No one does good.
For this to be true, it would mean that no one would choose God.
It's quite clear that in this scenario, the thing that causes God to choose us is because of the good we will do, namely choosing Him.
But again no one does good.
Our situation though is worse than that.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Here we are told that we could never even know God or anything spiritual on our own.
So not only would not choose God, we literally don't have the ability to do so.
This is actually doctrine that Jesus taught.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Salvation comes first, then is a person able to see and understand.
So then, we know that God doesn't look into the future to see who will choose Him.
But if all these reason why He doesn't is true, how does He choose?
Well, the bible doesn't actually tell us.
We know that those who are saved will respond to the gospel. They will recognise that they are sinners, have sinned, and rightly deserve God's wrath. The will also recognise that Jesus is God, and has died on the cross so save people just like them from the Father's wrath. They will turn to Christ, confess their sins to Him, and beg Him to forgive and save them.
They will further recognise that this has actually happened, pointing to the cross, and they will set themselves to now obey Christ in all things.
This is the fruit of those who God has elected to salvation from the foundation of the world, according to the scriptures.
But we are no where told how God makes the decision to save this person and not that person.
It seems to be something that is none of our business.
Now, that might catch people by surprise, but if God told us how He chose wouldn't we try to make sure that people do or say whatever in order in order to bend God's arm somehow to save then?
Do we not do that anyway? We declare those who answer an altar call as saved. We declare someone saved if they repeat the sinner's prayer.
Some even go so far as to say someone has lost their salvation if they leave one local congregation to go to a different one.
We even try to bend God's arm to answer our prayer by getting a bunch of people to pray too, thinking that more people praying will make God bow to peer pressure and obey our command. Even going so far as to twist His word to make it say something it doesn't (Matthew 18 - Where two or more are gathered...).
In all sorts of ways, we go much further than scripture intended and even allows. But when it comes to salvation, God has always told us the means. It's always been up to Him.
Romans 9:6-33
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
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So, we know that God saves some and doesn't save others.
We know that salvation is entirely upto Him, and there is nothing we do to play a part in it.
We know that, because we are sinners, God would be entirely just to send all of us to Hell, and so His not choosing some is entirely just on His part.
And lastly, we know that we have no idea why or how He makes the decision to choose one person over the next.
These things deal with the first 4 of the 5 part summary known as the acronym T.U.L.I.P., aka reformed theology.
T: Total Depravity - all are sinners destined for hell, and will not and can not choose God
U: Unconditional Election - God alone chooses who will be saved and it's not based on anything the person does.
L: Limited Atonement - God choose some people to be saved. It's His decision to save some and not others/all. Christ only died for His sheep.
I: Irresistable Grace - All those who the Father gives to Christ, will come to Him. God makes/causes people to come to Him.
P: Perseverance of the saints - all those who are saved, will stay saved. They can never lose their salvation.
These are the things that not only Christ Jesus teaches directly, but the totality of scripture shows.
When we take Jesus' words seriously, and pay attention to what it is He's saying, we can't help
but come to these conclusions.
Of course these things go against our sinful sensibilities. We think that we must repent, or be baptised, or cry out for God, in order to be saved.
Jesus tells us that it's actually the other way. He saves us first, then these things happen.
Join us next time when we look at another idea that was discussed.
Maranatha
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